Hone

PODCASTS | EPISODE 01

65 min

How to Enhance Learner Engagement in Hybrid and Remote Environments with Cindy Huggett

What's covered

Join host Tom Griffiths in an illuminating episode featuring special guest Cindy Huggett. A leading authority on virtual and hybrid learning, Cindy brings her expertise as an author, speaker, and facilitator to the forefront.

In this conversation, you'll uncover:

  • The true potential of virtual and hybrid learning
  • Practical engagement strategies to elevate your training sessions
  • Key qualities of effective facilitation
  • Creating a successful learning environment

By embracing these insights, you'll enhance learner engagement, transform the learning process, and make a meaningful impact on your organization's growth. Tune in now to revolutionize your approach to learning and facilitation.

About the speakers

CindyHugget

Cindy Huggett

Virtual Training Expert

Cindy Huggett is a speaker, leader, and facilitator, served on the national ATD Board of Directors, and is one of the world’s foremost experts on virtual and hybrid learning with over 29 years of professional experience.

She is the author of Virtual Training Tools and Templates: An Action Guide to Live Online Learning (2017), The Virtual Training Guidebook: How to Design, Deliver, and Implement Live Online Learning (2014) and Virtual Training Basics, 2nd edition (2018).

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TomGriffiths

Tom Griffiths

CEO and Co-founder, Hone

Tom is the co-founder and CEO of Hone, a next-generation live learning platform for management and people-skills. Prior to Hone, Tom was co-founder and Chief Product Officer of gaming unicorn FanDuel, where over a decade he helped create a multi-award winning product and a thriving distributed team. He has had lifelong passions for education, technology, and business and is grateful for the opportunity to combine all three at Hone. Tom lives in San Diego with his wife and two young children.

Tom regularly speaks and writes about leadership development, management training, and the future of work.

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Episode transcript

Tom Griffiths

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Learning Works podcast. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Cindy Huggett, author, speaker, leader, and trainer, and, safe to say, one of the world's leading authorities on virtual and hybrid training. She's the author of five books on virtual training. She's got 20-plus years of virtual training experience herself, way before we were all doing it. And that's part of a broader 30-plus years of experience in the training industry. Cindy knows the industry and set out and has been one of the global ATD board of directors in the past as well. So Cindy, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Cindy Huggett

Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here, and I'm excited about our conversation today.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely. Likewise. I think, you know, safe to say in your area of expertise, virtual, hybrid training has been quite the rollercoaster the past three years or so, with the pandemic driving everyone to 100% remote work. And then, you know, over time, folks gradually come back into a more hybrid work environment, which now feels like the norm, all presenting different challenges for work and learning and development.

So we've got a lot to talk about, not least your new book that tackles the challenges of trading in a hybrid workplace. So if it's all right with you, let's dive right in. We'd love to kind of get the latest, you know, what are you working on right now? And what is it? What's most exciting to you?

Cindy Huggett

I have so many new projects. It seems like I'm constantly juggling, but in addition to the book we're talking about, the Facilitators Guide to Immersive, Blended, and Hybrid, just released in May of 2023.

On designing virtual learning for application and impact. And that was co-authored with the amazing Jack and Patti Phillips and learning transfer expert Emma Weber. And so we've been for the past few weeks doing rollout for that. But I'm constantly creating content. And I'm actually circling back to two books that I wrote in the past.

2014 and 2018, respectively, the virtual training guidebook and virtual training tools and templates and updating both of those. The second edition will be out next year. So I'm constantly creating new resources, trying to keep up with the times, and equip facilitators and learning leaders with what they need to be successful. So those are the things I'm working on now, and I'm really excited about everything.

Tom Griffiths

That's fantastic to hear. Well, congrats on the new book from a couple of months ago. Excited to talk about that at some point. But yeah, there are two originals from way back, in 2014, that were really the textbooks for us as we built out Hone. So, you know, the basis for us getting connected all those years ago. So thank you for those, and excited for the second edition. 

For the facilitator's guide to immersive blended and hybrid learning.

There's clearly a lot behind each of those terms, and you chose them quite deliberately. So I was wondering if you could talk about how you came to choose those elements and how they're related to each other.

Cindy Huggett

I've been doing virtual learning for over 20 years. And one of the things I've specialized in is helping organizations and trainers, and facilitators do it well. How do you create these engaging learning environments? And so back in about 2017, I started seeing news; you might have seen it as well, of new technologies coming into virtual classrooms.

for Skype and Webex announced some augmented reality or starting to lay the groundwork for immersive technologies, and Zoom announced some things. And so I was looking at these thinking, how do we start to use them in virtual classrooms? What do we need as organizations, as leaders, and as facilitators need to be aware of? And just started looking at them from the perspective of my current clients, incorporate these? Do we incorporate these? What does that look like?"

And so, in my quest, I started realizing the potential of immersive learning and how the intersection between virtual training and immersive learning happens with technologies that are becoming more readily available. That led me to propose a book to ATD Press on The Facilitator's Guide to Immersive Learning. And as I was writing that, what happened in 2020, right? It was right about that time. 

So this book has been in the works for a couple of years. And as the landscape was shifting, and as I was already writing about immersive learning, I needed to also equip organizations and facilitators with news on what was going on virtually. And in the transition from classroom to online, so many programs started becoming blended. In other words, not just three days in the classroom in person, but that 24 hours of content that some can be self-directed, some can be facilitator-led, and what do we do with that? And so that's where the blended came from. And then, of course, hybrid. I actually wrote about hybrid learning back in 2016 on how to do it. And the three things just naturally came together.

Where we look at the facilitator skills in modern learning environments, which happened to be the virtual classroom, the hybrid classroom, the blended learning journeys, and the immersion that takes place with virtual reality and augmented reality, and putting them together in one book just really made sense.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely. No, that makes a lot of sense. Immersive, blended, and hybrid coming together. And I think there are some exciting kinds of futuristic training experiences that can be delivered with the new hardware coming at some point in terms of VR. But I think it's good for us to focus on the blended and the hybrid part because I think that's what most folks in their day-to-day are experiencing.

Tom Griffiths

You know, we're obviously big fans of virtual training at home, but I'd be curious about what you've experienced over the years in terms of virtual classroom experiences and what you think are the most or the biggest misperceptions that people have about virtual classrooms.

Cindy Huggett

Oh, what a great question. When we think about those misperceptions, they're not necessarily new. They've been around for a while, virtual learning. And when we say virtual, let's just be clear. We're talking about the facilitated live online classroom. And for some reason, the misperception of presenting is the same as learning. And we know it's not. You know it's not. I know it's not. And on paper, that seems good. But what happens?

I think in too many organizations, a trainer or facilitator isn't up-skilled or equipped with what they need. They realize I'm not able to see the audience, or maybe we're not using cameras for this portion for whatever reason. And they just go into lecture mode. They slip into that. Or what happens is you can put a lot of people into a virtual classroom, right? And just because you can doesn't mean you should.

But it's a lot harder to get the collaboration, conversation, and relationships when you're a facilitator with 100 people or more in a virtual classroom. So again, they default to presenting. And so there's this misperception that presenting equals learning. And we know that's not true. And if we could, and what I share with people.

If you could play a recording back of a virtual class and somebody watching that recording would have essentially the same experience if they were live attending in the classroom, then that's not a virtual class. That's a presentation. That should have been a video, right? That's a meeting that should have been an email. That's a virtual class that should have been a video recording. And so the misperception around that still exists, but...

There's another one that almost sounds the opposite, and that is that engagement or entertainment also equals learning. That if you bring people together and ask enough poll questions or do enough breakout groups, that learning takes place. And just as much of a misperception as presenting equal learning, I think interactivity sometimes can be misconstrued.

Learning and it really needs to be meaningful. It needs to be leading toward learning objectives. It needs to be engaged with a purpose that allows learning to occur. So let's be clear about that as well and be honest about it. Just because you're answering a poll question or clicking on the screen doesn't also necessarily mean that you're learning.

Tom Griffiths

As you say, if it's just presentation mode, it might as well have been a video that you could watch any time more conveniently. We also think about the convenience of the virtual classroom experience, regardless of where you are. So it's kind of got this aspect of inclusiveness because you can reach folks that don't have to be in the same geographical location.

But also, because it is more convenient, you can do it over time, once a week, instead of a big long session on one day. And that can lead to better learning outcomes through reinforcement and accountability. And it's just a magical modality when used right.

Cindy Huggett

Let's dwell on that for a quick moment. And the virtual classroom has so many benefits. And I think sometimes we forget about that. We often think of virtual learning, or organizations look at it as a secondary type of learning when it's not. The ability to come together to collaborate, discuss, practice, explore, and have these rich conversations with the tools that most virtual platforms give you now. We're reaching audiences that before wouldn't have been able to participate in a learning experience like that. We have more tools at our disposal in a virtual classroom than we do in person. Think about the collaborative whiteboards or the simplicity of getting into small groups or breakouts. You can have those directed individualized conversations and many other creative ways you can use those tools. And so maybe thinking back to the misperceptions of virtual learning not being as effective when really it can be even more effective than meeting together in person or some of the other modalities that are out there.

Tom Griffiths

Totally agree. Let's go into a little bit more detail then because you'd mentioned all those different features you can use, but also to watch out for the fact that just using them doesn't mean learning is occurring. So when it comes to how you advise people on designing their virtual sessions, using things like polls or chat or breakout rooms, how can you make that a worthwhile feature of the class?

How do those get deployed across the window that you have for learning?

Cindy Huggett

When we're thinking about any sort of learning solution, it should be tied to something that an organization needs, whether that's a business need or an opportunity; we're equipping leaders to be better communicators so that they can be more effective. We're not having to have the conversation ten times or that email chain back and forth, back and forth. We're creating, for example, a skill that leaders need or that employees need. And so we're thinking about what that is and what the outcome of the learning needs to be, either solving a problem or capitalizing on opportunity. And if we start with that in mind, we can then design a learning solution that takes us there, creating a solution that people will benefit from. 

And so we could keep going with the tools we use, the polls, the breakouts, the whiteboard, the chat, the notepads, the virtual backgrounds, the breakout rooms. All of those are simply tools to help us achieve a learning outcome and allow that new skill to be applied back on the job in the real world. So it's so much less about the tools and technology. They make it a lot easier. We can do a great virtual class with cameras only and default to using hand raising, physical hand raising, or other tools. But, you know, why do that? Technology makes it a lot easier. But let's keep in mind what the goal is. So with that said, I specifically and practically recommend to designers that most of our learners are in the middle of their workday. We're scheduling a virtual program for 10 a.m. on a Tuesday morning. So somebody has started their workday, and they're in the middle of whatever they're doing or meetings, and all of a sudden, they need to stop and then focus on learning in the virtual classroom. So how are we preparing them?

Number one, setting expectations with the learners, whether through your program descriptions, your reminders, the facilitators, personal notes to the learner, or different ways you're setting expectations. And when they log in, they are immediate reminders of those expectations. Hey, it's time to set aside whatever you're working on. It's time to take a short period of time to invest in yourself. And we're gonna help you do that, but that's what's expected. So thinking through and setting expectations. And then at the start, not 10 minutes in, not 15 minutes in, not 20 minutes in, but at the start, we are having a meaningful interaction involving every learner. 

So that could be a poll question and an interactive whiteboard. I'm not talking about an icebreaker. Because who has time for that these days? It should help with the social connection, but we're looking for some immediate interaction. One of my favorite things to do is to, for example, let the learners introduce themselves before the facilitator introduces them. It's very simple, but we're shifting the focus to the learners instead of the facilitators or, within the first five minutes, putting them into a breakout room with one other person to create a learning or accountability partner. 

So the point is right at the very beginning, we're setting the tone, we're setting the stage, not for the sake of interactivity, but for the sake of creating an environment where everyone's included and everyone is a part of the learning experience. And then we continue from there. We make use of the tools to allow for conversation, collaboration, and discussion, for facilitators who are talking too much; we tell them to share their airtime. 

Let's see what percentage of you talking or lecturing or presenting versus the learners actively involved in the experience at the end of the program. And we really want to tilt the pendulum toward the learners. And for anyone listening who's thinking, but wait a minute, I have content to teach. Well, that goes back to, is the virtual classroom the best place for that. 

A video may be part of the preparation they watch or something they read coming in prepared. And there are different ways we can encourage that to happen so that the learners show up ready to discuss, collaborate, learn, and have the conversations that then tie back to our learning outcomes.

Tom Griffiths

I know it's so powerful. And when done well, a really engaging and effective experience. I think just a few of the things that you mentioned there, you know, for the smaller group being able to introduce themselves just shows how different this can be to the more traditional webinar formats for, you know, dozens or hundreds of people. We're really talking about, you know, under 20 or so folks in the room together. That's great.

Do you have any stories or examples of exercises that have worked well for you in a recent training or for one of your clients that you've seen or any of these interactive techniques where you really saw the room change?

Cindy Huggett

You know, one of my favorites lately, and I didn't create it. It was something that I saw another presenter do, and I thought, that's brilliant, and I'm going to adapt it, modify it, and start using it. And at the start of the program, maybe not the very first thing, but pretty quick, and I'll ask my learners, everyone, you know, how engaged do you plan to be in the learning today on a scale of one to five?

where are you? And no judgment. So if they're on camera, I'll ask them to share on a scale of one to five. I've also done it by poll questions for the slightly larger groups. But I asked them the question, which usually brings a little nervous chuckle like, oh, wow, that's a direct question. But it's not the real question because the follow on question is, okay, then wherever you are, what would it take to increase that number by one?

What would it take to bump you to be a little more engaged? And we have a brief interaction around that. For some, I need just to turn my mobile device over so I can't see the screen and the notifications. For others, I need to close out of my Slack channel or just take this piece of paper on my desk to a place where I can't see it. 

Simple things like that that allow somebody to enter into the learning experience. So you might think, Cindy, that's not a deep interaction. It's not, but it profoundly differs from the learning experience. 

The other thing I do, and I'm gonna go right to it if that's okay, is I mentioned putting people into breakouts near the start of a program. One of my favorite things to do is to pair up learners, to put them into a duo and allow them to go have a quick conversation around either expectations or challenges related to the topic. Depending on the topic, I've done it in different ways, but it does two things. It, one, creates an accountability partner. People realize very quickly in the learning program that they're with other people, that this is colleagues or others in a similar learning situation who are together. So it creates that conversation and accountability.

And then number two, it gets them immediately thinking through the content, the topic, how it relates to what they are currently faced with, how it's going to benefit them, and how it's going to lead them along that learning journey. So I love to, and it's not a long breakout; it may be just three or four minutes. You know, you've got two minutes each to say hello, introduce yourself if needed, and here's your quick discussion question.

I find when I do that, again, it just changes the tone of the virtual learning program.

Tom Griffiths

The coaching question of having people reflect on where they're at engagement-wise and take ownership of how they can improve that. And then in the second one, you know, connecting with someone that perhaps, yeah, you keep revisiting that relationship throughout the training session and you know, you've broken the ice right at the beginning. So yeah, those are, those are great tactical tips. Thank you. That's all well and good in a purely virtual environment. And with the onset of COVID and remote work, we felt like we were just getting the hang of how we do this fully remotely. And then folks started to come back to the office. But of course, as we know, not everyone came back to the office, and not every day. So most of us find ourselves in these hybrid work environments where some folks are in the office together, co-located with others remotely, and that can change from day to day, week to week. And so I know a big theme of your recent work has been how we can further adapt our training techniques to hybrid environments. And so, we'd love just to hear your thoughts on how you can create a positive and powerful experience for hybrid learning.

Cindy Huggett

I'm really glad that you took a moment just to define it because I find that still, in our industry, some people, when they hear the word hybrid, they're thinking of the university model of a blended curriculum. But really we're talking about a learning program that has some people together in a conference room, training room, and then others who are joining remotely. And when we think about that, those two different audiences are having really different learning experiences. 

Some people who are together can just easily turn to the person next to them and have a side conversation where the remote audience is on their own, isolated or separated in a home office or whatever location they happen to be in. And so, bridging the gap between those very different audience experiences is the key to successful hybrid learning.

I hate to say it, but I do think it's important to acknowledge if you can avoid doing that, don't create a program that is for your in-person audience and then create a parallel program that is for your online audience and run them, not necessarily simultaneously, but in your learning catalog of

So if you have the resources to do that, I think that's a big question that learning leaders should be asking themselves right now about the right format to use for learning. Is it virtual? Is it in person? Do we have to do a hybrid? And in some cases, the answer is no. So have that intentional question. Now, if you realize because of our workforce, resources, limitations, and the way we're structured, hybrid learning makes the most sense. Well, then the second set of questions to ask are, okay, number one, do I have the technology in place, or can I get technology in place that's going to make that an easier experience for everybody involved? So that technology piece might be whatever virtual platform you're using. Do they have a kit that is a room, like a Zoom room or a Teams room?

Can I go out and get a 360-degree camera, like an owl camera, or do I have audio set up in the room? Do I have a screen that can display video, right? So you're looking at the technology. It is not required, but boy, it makes hybrid a whole lot easier and simpler to do if you've got some of the technology tools. Then the second piece, so that's question area number one, the technology.

The second piece is, am I upskilling my facilitators in how to do hybrid well? Because it is a true skill to be able to bring in and draw in and include your remote attendees so that they feel like they are part of the learning experience. Right, we wanna design it well, we wanna have activity adaptations for those who are in person versus those who are remote, but it's the facilitator who at the moment, needs to draw in the remote audience. And so the way we ask questions, the way we focus on the remote audience first, the way we invite everybody to come in, how we manage the discussion, what do we do, for example, when there's a side conversation that takes place in person and the remote audience didn't hear it. So we really want to, and a large part of my work, over the past year to year and a half, has been partnering with organizations on how to do hybrid learning well and upskilling facilitators in how to facilitate these hybrid environments classes. And I can share a couple of simple tips and examples if we want to go there, but that is just taking off because of how most organizations adapt to the hybrid workplace.

Tom Griffiths

It's such a difficult topic. Excuse me. Yeah. I mean, to your point, from the technology to the logistics to the ways that you can hopefully adapt some of the great features of virtual training to the hybrid environment, we struggle with things like, okay, you know, how do you do breakout rooms if some people are together and some people are virtual? How do you even do polls when? Maybe some people have a computer each, but others are sharing in a meeting room. What would be some of those tactical tips to overcome some of those challenges?

Cindy Huggett

Yeah, so I actually recommend that everybody have a device, even if they are in person, because it means they can connect to the virtual classroom and answer polls or use the virtual whiteboard or have access to some of the other tools, the reactions and other things. So even if you are coming together, whether it's a mobile device, or a laptop, that part doesn't matter, but I do recommend that everybody have that device that they can use the virtual classroom tools. It helps to equalize the experience. So that's number one. And then number two, we do want to make sure that everyone can be heard. And so even though you're connecting to the virtual classroom, you're not connecting to the audio. So...

A facilitator or their partner who's helping with the tech needs to know things like how you mute all upon entry; little settings like that can make or break how the audio works. We do want to see everyone on camera. So setting the expectations for both our remote and in-person audience. We're gonna have a camera in the room. We're going to ask your remote audience to have the camera on. Doesn't mean we're gonna keep it on for, you know, hours and hours and hours in a row and make you stare at the screen, but for some of these conversations, we wanna do that. 

For breakouts, it is always better, if possible, to integrate your remote audience into the in-person environment. So, for example, about three months or so ago, I was with an in-person group, and we had four remote attendees. So most of the people were together, but we had four remote attendees. 

So at the beginning of the training program, I took each of the four attendees, and I partnered them up with somebody in the classroom. Said your buddies, your partners for the day. And so each time we split into breakout groups, I ensured that each of the four was at a different table. They were assigned to a partner at a different table for the breakouts. And each of those four breakout groups that the remote attendees were in would connect that person by audio. I had one group who we were just going to FaceTime. 

We're just going to draw her in on a mobile device. And they set to like on a stand, and she was part of the conversation, and in another group, they used a different technique. Another group opened up a different team's room, right? So it was different ways, and I left it up to them how to do it. But they were folded into the breakouts that way so that they could have four different audio channels able to have the small group conversations. I think one group left; they went to a different meeting room and used that. 

But anyways, the point was we folded them in. It's a lot easier just to say, " okay, four remote participants, go have your own breakout. And there's a time and a place for that. We don't want to rule it out altogether. But if, practically, you can fold and integrate the two audiences together, again, you're creating a more equitable and inclusive learning experience, which is what we want in a hybrid classroom.

Tom Griffiths

It just speaks to your earlier points of needing to master the technology to deliver the experience you want that supports the learning group. Also clear in that is just the importance of the facilitator themselves and their skills, both in technology, but moreover on facilitation. In the book, you talk about the evolution from instructor to trainer to facilitator.

I would love it if you could just lay out that evolution and the term that you coin in the book, the facilitator of the future; it would be great to understand a bit more as well.

Cindy Huggett

So a couple of things come into play here, and one of them is in the instructional design world; over the past couple of years, the term learning experience designer has become kind of that name that instructional designers are going by. And there's a big debate in the industry. Is that the same thing as an instructional designer, just a new name? Or is it truly a new role, somebody who is designing learning experiences? And so parallel to that, you can think about the facilitator role, right? If designers are designing learning experiences, then trainers, instructors, and presenters, we're facilitating learning experiences. So I see a big parallel there. And when I think of the role in the past, we have teachers, we have instructors, we have educators, and it's not that those roles are going away. And in some, when we think about a global audience, in some countries, those terms have very specific. 

Credentialed meetings where you're credentialed to be an instructor, you're credentialed to be an educator, and so I'm not necessarily talking about that, but really looking at if our goal is to equip a workforce, to equip employees, to equip people with new skills, then it's not just about us teaching or just about somebody training or instructing. There may be an element of that. But really, we're facilitating their learning. We're enabling them to learn. And so I think the term facilitator applies best, whether that's somebody's job title or not acting like a facilitator, remembering it's not about me, the presenter, and what I'm teaching; it's about my learner. It's about my participant. It's about helping them discover, explore, practice, and ultimately be able to apply what the new topic or the new content is. 

So that's the evolution if I think of my own journey; 30 years ago, when I was in my very first corporate training job, my job title was instructor. And I'm not going to say what I was teaching, but I'll give you a hint. It's a. I'm laughing. I'm debating whether or not to share this. I'll share it anyways. I was, I was teaching DOS programming.

Wow, right? That is a blast from the past. But also Windows, when it first came out, I was teaching software programs. And who knew what DOS programming was, right? There was an instructor to it, an element to it, of course. But, the exploration of my participants who were on personal computers doing the work, like that's where the learning happened.

Where we would put together, okay, let's say you want to do this. Let's work through this scenario and how you're going to do it in today's world. It might be something like, hey, you need to fill out an expense report and submit it. So let's hop into the system and have you fill that out Versus, you know, sharing there are three different types of expense reports and five, you know, it's just getting to what do they really need to do? 

So there is a place for instructing, but then that evolved. In one of my roles that I had about ten years later, I was called a trainer. I was a trainer role, and I still had a lot of elements of teaching and presenting. A facilitation skill does include presenting. There's an element of that, of course, especially in an online environment where we're showing up on cameras. But the more we can remember, it's about the learners learning. It's about their enabling their experience, the better. So when I talk about the Learning Experience Facilitator, the Facilitator of the Future, it's all in that sentiment where we're getting to on how do we keep up with the technology and use that to help enable our learners to get a new skill, practice a new skill and apply that new skill on the job.

Tom Griffiths

It's so interesting to think about the interaction of the design with the facilitation. I used to watch a lot of live comedy when I lived in Edinburgh in Scotland, and there's a big comedy festival there. And one of the observations was, you know, an A comedian can get a laugh from a B joke just because of their delivery and how good they are, whereas a B comedian, even with an A joke, wouldn't do as well.

So I'm curious, by analogy to training and facilitation, do you think a great facilitator can carry a poorly designed class? Or does it really come down to the design and doesn't matter so much about the facilitator? Not to pit you against your colleagues in any way, of course.

Cindy Huggett

That's such a great debate, right? And they're two sides of the same coin. It's so much easier for a facilitator to carry out a well-designed program, and it does start there. I would say if a program is well-designed, then it has a learning outlet that's tied to business results, that is tied to helping an organization be more effective, whatever that organization is measuring, whatever that organization is trying to do. So the well-designed program, especially in the virtual or hybrid world, yes, it's engaging, yes, it's interesting, yes, it's making use of the tools, but ultimately, it's helping the learners have an impact. So, you need a great facilitator, especially in an online environment. I think a poor facilitator would have a hard time carrying a design, even if it's a well-designed program. Um, but that might be my bias in working with facilitators. They're both important. Uh, I'm going to mull that over a little bit.

Let's zoom out a little bit because we talked a lot in detail about the act and all the art of facilitation. But of course, any learning sessions are set in the broader context of a bigger learning program, and you've got a ton of experience designing, managing, and delivering those as well.

Tom Griffiths

We're certainly living through a time when budgets are getting scrutinized and potentially reduced in this space. And to do this stuff well, as we've talked about so far, it needs investment. It needs investment in great facilitation, great content development, and technology. And so we'd be curious what approaches you might recommend to folks out there in the learning space to help them justify that investment in this level of learning design and delivery.

Cindy Huggett

Investment is really the key word because if we think of it as a cost, if we think of it as a sunk cost, then we're not seeing it from the right lens. We're not looking at it from the right perspective. And when we look at these investments, it's an investment in technology, but more importantly, it's an investment in your people. We want to take a program that is well-designed. As we talked to just a few moments ago, a well-designed program is one that is linked to that application and impact. It's linked to the impact that this learning program is going to have on the organization. So perhaps a flip.

Sideway of thinking of that is what would happen if the learning doesn't take place. What are the challenges and problems? rework Costs of not providing this type of learning and if that is going to affect the organization Organization's bottom line if it's going to affect customer service. It's going to affect turnover right all those things that have hard measures in place; then it's something that we want to be investing in. We invest in our leaders in leader development, for example, not just because we want to check a box and say we provide leadership development but because we want those leaders to have effective conversations with their employees so that they can achieve business results or they can sell more product, or they can meet customer service or whatever the business goals happen to be. And so, truly looking at it as an investment, I mentioned the most current book that we just came out with, Designing Virtual Learning for Application and Impact. That is the core of this new book. And it is, How Do You Design a Virtual Learning Curriculum?

To make sure that you're not just stopping at did they learn something, but looking at how we design it to ensure there's business impact. And so there are actually 50 techniques in the book that we put on how do you do that? 

And so we drew upon the wisdom of ROI experts, Jack and Patty Phillips, and then Emma Webber, who's a learning transfer expert, and then my contribution from the virtual classroom. And really brought those three things together to look at what does it take? And so as a learning leader, who's looking at investing in technology, investing in virtual learning programs, investing in our people, want to think about, okay, what would happen if I don't do this? Do I want to go down that path? And the answer is probably not. So how is this going to help our organization? What can we do? 

And one other thing I'll say about it is, yes, there is an investment in technology. There's an investment in upskilling. There's an investment in having the right equipment. But often, those investments are ones that your organization is already making. You're already, for example, equipping people with webcams for video meetings, and we're now going to use those for virtual learning. Or you're using a platform perhaps that you're using for online collaboration that we can then use for learning. And we can reuse components in the design. Really good designers that they use, and they repeat that. And so there may be some more initial investments than ongoing, but it's an investment that's going to help you be more efficient in creating the learning, designing the learning, implementing the learning.

Tom Griffiths

Thinking about those outcomes and how we can evidence that, and how training can improve our progress towards those outcomes is so important. If you can articulate that, you can go do it. If you don't make the investment, you don't get the return. One of the saddest things we've seen in the industry recently is people saying, you know, my budget's been cut. I've still got to do something. I know it's not really going to work, but we need to check the box. Um, and so it's like the worst of both worlds. You're spending the money, but you're not getting the outcome. So yeah, you've really got to, um, ensure that those investments are paying off. And, um, there's plenty of techniques out there and case studies and statistics on the internet to show people how to do that. And, uh, really looking forward to the book to go in deeper on it.

Cindy Huggett

Yeah. Tom, I'm reminded you and I both, and I'm sure our listeners have had experiences. Think of a customer service person you have dealt with in your recent life who wasn't up-skilled, who couldn't help you with whatever problem you were having or whatever situation you were asking about. That's the result often, not always, but often of an organization that did not invest in its people, right? That didn't equip them with what they needed or the skill they needed. And about the frustration, which is just one small example, but we know what good customer service looks like; we appreciate it when we get it, and we think about what would happen if the organization invested in their people. What a different experience that might have been?

Tom Griffiths

What would you say to folks that the most important things learning leaders should be measuring to get results? You mentioned the customer service example, but interested in that function and others as well to see how we can actually measure this outcome.

Cindy Huggett

You know, I would point to whatever the organizational measures are. I don't know that we have different measures as learning leaders. If the organization has a goal, for example, to roll out a new product next year, well, then that's where our learning efforts should be. Or, if we're struggling with employee engagement and employee turnover, we should be looking at how we can help with learning opportunities that will have an impact.

We might look at sales, and we might look at marketing, we might look at internal efficiencies, and product or program management, right? So I don't necessarily think it's different. Some of the traditional training measures that we look at how many people went through our classes and what are hours of learning we had, and those might be fine statistics and numbers to look at. Maybe you're looking at evaluation scores on a trainer's evaluation. It's not that those numbers are bad, but that's not what an organization is looking at in terms of success. So I think the most successful learning leaders measure what's important to the organization. And if you don't know what that is, let's have those conversations, find out, and then funneling the learning opportunities there, funneling the resources around designing and facilitating, producing, and supporting into areas that are going to equip your team to have impact, application, and impact on the organization. So somebody who works for a nonprofit or manufacturing or aerospace or pharmaceutical right there are all going to have their different measures. But my guess is it falls back on one of the traditional key performance indicators around time, quality, money, sales, and those things. So as learning leaders, let's keep our eye and ear on those as well.

Tom Griffiths

How do you scale effective learning experiences across big populations at big multinational corporations or even folks that have got more than 20 people in their company, which is almost every company? So it's a big topic that we could go deep on in another conversation, but I would love to kind of get your high-level thoughts on how you then go beyond just the singular small classroom experience and then scale that to large populations and what some challenges that can arise there are and how to overcome those.

Cindy Huggett

Yeah, that's such a great question, especially when we think about the large multinational organizations or those with a large population that need the learning. And some of it goes back to design. If you need to scale a program, we know the value of small groups and small cohorts going through a learning journey together. But we can look back to, back in 2012, right? I think it was 2012 when it was declared the year of the MOOC, the M-O-O-C. Remember that? The massive open online courses. Let's get hundreds of people into these live online courses. And that didn't last very long. They're still around. But what happened was they shifted to have a lot of the content in self-directed asynchronous learning and then coming together, bringing together the smaller cohorts for discussion, collaboration, and conversation. And I think we can take a lesson from that. When we need to scale a learning program, the ability to determine what can be done synchronously, asynchronously, and what's the right mix, the right component mix. So, for example, if I'm going to learn a new skill, I'm gonna just take a generic one. I need to learn how to do a performance review with an employee. And...

There are a lot of very practical tactical things that I may not need a facilitator for. So where can I get that information? Where can I get that content? But then let's come together in smaller groups. So having the ability to come together with a peer group, a smaller group for discussion.

Okay, I know how to fill out the form, but what about actually having the conversation? And what do I do when an employee says, well, I don't agree with that or whatever that challenge may be? And so coming together in smaller groups. So we have this umbrella, if you will, different parts of the learning experience or the journey, different components. 

Some I do on my own, and some I do together. You can scale that in organizations. When you have a facilitator who might meet, and let's take one facilitator who's in a geographic location, they might meet with a group from 8 to 9 a.m., have a quick break, meet with another group from 10 to 11 a.m., and then meet with another group, right? 

So they're cycling through different groups at different parts of the learning journey, but they're touching a facilitator. They're touching an up-skilled, experienced expert in that content, a learning leader, or a group where the learning experience can still take place. So we could keep going with some more specifics, but how do you scale with really well-designed programs and break people into those small cohorts at times when it makes sense? I may bring people together for 300 people together in one webinar for something, but then I'm breaking them into their smaller groups for the discussion dialogue practice and all of that. 

I don't want a manager who has just watched a series of videos on how to have a difficult conversation than having that difficult conversation. It's like, and I don't want a surgeon who just watched videos on how to do the surgery. It's there's certain things that getting together with colleagues and discussion and dialogue you're going to help with.

Tom Griffiths

We can do some parts asynchronously at scale and then bring the right groups of people together at the right times to go deeper on that cohort learning experience that they're going through together. That's great.

What would you recommend is one thing that learning leaders stop doing that you see a lot of people doing right now?

Cindy Huggett

I think learning leaders need to stop assuming that just because most people have been online for the last three years, that they're equipped to be online well. I think we make the assumption that somebody can show up on camera and deliver or get their point across when really that is a skill that not everybody has, or they've been doing it poorly for a while, and no one's pointed it out to them. You know, if you did these three quick things.

your message would be heard in a much more intentional way. And so, I think we need to stop assuming that everyone has the skill of online presence, online communication skills, and digital presentation skills. I think that's a missed opportunity in many organizations.

Tom Griffiths

What's one thing that you think learning leaders should start doing, just given everything that's going on?

Cindy Huggett

We should start equipping our learners, and participants, with what they need to attend virtual learning well. I think sometimes we forget that if you're going to put an hour or 90-minute learning event in the middle of a work week, that means that it's not the time to be pinging them with Slack or Teams messages because they're learning right now. I think we need to start recognizing virtual learning as a viable way to learn and honor that some leaders do well, but I think far too many of us need to start remembering that.

Tom Griffiths

One thing to give credit to folks out there that they're doing that they should continue to do?

Cindy Huggett

We've gotten really good at using virtual classroom tools like polling and like chatting. I think we should continue using those with a caveat. We're not using them just to use them, but we're using them to further the conversation. So we're getting good at breakouts. We're getting good at collaborative whiteboards and polling, but let's use them with intentionality and so not fall into a rut, but use them and continue to use them to further conversations.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely agreed. Thank you. Last question. We've got a lot of aspiring and growing learning leaders who love to learn how to be more effective in their roles. So I would love to get from your experience one tip or takeaway for them to stand out in their role to their team or the leadership team.

Cindy Huggett

Wow, are you sure that's just our last question, Tom, because we could spend another hour talking about that, I think. I, if I could boil it down to one thing, I would say continually invest in yourself, in your own learning. The more you're willing to try out a new technology or try out a new technique or be open to incorporating something in. And it takes investment to do that in this fast-paced world. It's really hard to pause, go through your 90-minute personal development program, and invest in yourself. But that rest or that investment or that just let me read a new journal article or try out this new technology or attend this segment is going to pay off in dividends. And so I think that's an important reminder, not only to new learning leaders but to myself as well. Perhaps I'm speaking to myself more than anyone, but that's the number one piece of advice I would share.

Tom Griffiths

Fantastic, yeah, so make the time to invest in yourself. I love it. Thank you so much, Cindy. That was a fantastic wide-ranging conversation with so much wisdom there for our listeners. Really appreciate the time. I mean, I've been in this industry for over half a decade now, and I've never met anyone that knows as much about the virtual training space, both at the high level and down at the detailed tactical level of how to do this well. So thank you for sharing so much of that today.

Cindy Huggett

Thanks, Tom. It's been an honor to be here, and I've loved our conversation.

Tom Griffiths

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Learning Works podcast. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Cindy Huggett, author, speaker, leader, and trainer, and, safe to say, one of the world's leading authorities on virtual and hybrid training. She's the author of five books on virtual training. She's got 20-plus years of virtual training experience herself, way before we were all doing it. And that's part of a broader 30-plus years of experience in the training industry. Cindy knows the industry and set out and has been one of the global ATD board of directors in the past as well. So Cindy, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Cindy Huggett

Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here, and I'm excited about our conversation today.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely. Likewise. I think, you know, safe to say in your area of expertise, virtual, hybrid training has been quite the rollercoaster the past three years or so, with the pandemic driving everyone to 100% remote work. And then, you know, over time, folks gradually come back into a more hybrid work environment, which now feels like the norm, all presenting different challenges for work and learning and development.

So we've got a lot to talk about, not least your new book that tackles the challenges of trading in a hybrid workplace. So if it's all right with you, let's dive right in. We'd love to kind of get the latest, you know, what are you working on right now? And what is it? What's most exciting to you?

Cindy Huggett

I have so many new projects. It seems like I'm constantly juggling, but in addition to the book we're talking about, the Facilitators Guide to Immersive, Blended, and Hybrid, just released in May of 2023.

On designing virtual learning for application and impact. And that was co-authored with the amazing Jack and Patti Phillips and learning transfer expert Emma Weber. And so we've been for the past few weeks doing rollout for that. But I'm constantly creating content. And I'm actually circling back to two books that I wrote in the past.

2014 and 2018, respectively, the virtual training guidebook and virtual training tools and templates and updating both of those. The second edition will be out next year. So I'm constantly creating new resources, trying to keep up with the times, and equip facilitators and learning leaders with what they need to be successful. So those are the things I'm working on now, and I'm really excited about everything.

Tom Griffiths

That's fantastic to hear. Well, congrats on the new book from a couple of months ago. Excited to talk about that at some point. But yeah, there are two originals from way back, in 2014, that were really the textbooks for us as we built out Hone. So, you know, the basis for us getting connected all those years ago. So thank you for those, and excited for the second edition. 

For the facilitator's guide to immersive blended and hybrid learning.

There's clearly a lot behind each of those terms, and you chose them quite deliberately. So I was wondering if you could talk about how you came to choose those elements and how they're related to each other.

Cindy Huggett

I've been doing virtual learning for over 20 years. And one of the things I've specialized in is helping organizations and trainers, and facilitators do it well. How do you create these engaging learning environments? And so back in about 2017, I started seeing news; you might have seen it as well, of new technologies coming into virtual classrooms.

for Skype and Webex announced some augmented reality or starting to lay the groundwork for immersive technologies, and Zoom announced some things. And so I was looking at these thinking, how do we start to use them in virtual classrooms? What do we need as organizations, as leaders, and as facilitators need to be aware of? And just started looking at them from the perspective of my current clients, incorporate these? Do we incorporate these? What does that look like?"

And so, in my quest, I started realizing the potential of immersive learning and how the intersection between virtual training and immersive learning happens with technologies that are becoming more readily available. That led me to propose a book to ATD Press on The Facilitator's Guide to Immersive Learning. And as I was writing that, what happened in 2020, right? It was right about that time. 

So this book has been in the works for a couple of years. And as the landscape was shifting, and as I was already writing about immersive learning, I needed to also equip organizations and facilitators with news on what was going on virtually. And in the transition from classroom to online, so many programs started becoming blended. In other words, not just three days in the classroom in person, but that 24 hours of content that some can be self-directed, some can be facilitator-led, and what do we do with that? And so that's where the blended came from. And then, of course, hybrid. I actually wrote about hybrid learning back in 2016 on how to do it. And the three things just naturally came together.

Where we look at the facilitator skills in modern learning environments, which happened to be the virtual classroom, the hybrid classroom, the blended learning journeys, and the immersion that takes place with virtual reality and augmented reality, and putting them together in one book just really made sense.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely. No, that makes a lot of sense. Immersive, blended, and hybrid coming together. And I think there are some exciting kinds of futuristic training experiences that can be delivered with the new hardware coming at some point in terms of VR. But I think it's good for us to focus on the blended and the hybrid part because I think that's what most folks in their day-to-day are experiencing.

Tom Griffiths

You know, we're obviously big fans of virtual training at home, but I'd be curious about what you've experienced over the years in terms of virtual classroom experiences and what you think are the most or the biggest misperceptions that people have about virtual classrooms.

Cindy Huggett

Oh, what a great question. When we think about those misperceptions, they're not necessarily new. They've been around for a while, virtual learning. And when we say virtual, let's just be clear. We're talking about the facilitated live online classroom. And for some reason, the misperception of presenting is the same as learning. And we know it's not. You know it's not. I know it's not. And on paper, that seems good. But what happens?

I think in too many organizations, a trainer or facilitator isn't up-skilled or equipped with what they need. They realize I'm not able to see the audience, or maybe we're not using cameras for this portion for whatever reason. And they just go into lecture mode. They slip into that. Or what happens is you can put a lot of people into a virtual classroom, right? And just because you can doesn't mean you should.

But it's a lot harder to get the collaboration, conversation, and relationships when you're a facilitator with 100 people or more in a virtual classroom. So again, they default to presenting. And so there's this misperception that presenting equals learning. And we know that's not true. And if we could, and what I share with people.

If you could play a recording back of a virtual class and somebody watching that recording would have essentially the same experience if they were live attending in the classroom, then that's not a virtual class. That's a presentation. That should have been a video, right? That's a meeting that should have been an email. That's a virtual class that should have been a video recording. And so the misperception around that still exists, but...

There's another one that almost sounds the opposite, and that is that engagement or entertainment also equals learning. That if you bring people together and ask enough poll questions or do enough breakout groups, that learning takes place. And just as much of a misperception as presenting equal learning, I think interactivity sometimes can be misconstrued.

Learning and it really needs to be meaningful. It needs to be leading toward learning objectives. It needs to be engaged with a purpose that allows learning to occur. So let's be clear about that as well and be honest about it. Just because you're answering a poll question or clicking on the screen doesn't also necessarily mean that you're learning.

Tom Griffiths

As you say, if it's just presentation mode, it might as well have been a video that you could watch any time more conveniently. We also think about the convenience of the virtual classroom experience, regardless of where you are. So it's kind of got this aspect of inclusiveness because you can reach folks that don't have to be in the same geographical location.

But also, because it is more convenient, you can do it over time, once a week, instead of a big long session on one day. And that can lead to better learning outcomes through reinforcement and accountability. And it's just a magical modality when used right.

Cindy Huggett

Let's dwell on that for a quick moment. And the virtual classroom has so many benefits. And I think sometimes we forget about that. We often think of virtual learning, or organizations look at it as a secondary type of learning when it's not. The ability to come together to collaborate, discuss, practice, explore, and have these rich conversations with the tools that most virtual platforms give you now. We're reaching audiences that before wouldn't have been able to participate in a learning experience like that. We have more tools at our disposal in a virtual classroom than we do in person. Think about the collaborative whiteboards or the simplicity of getting into small groups or breakouts. You can have those directed individualized conversations and many other creative ways you can use those tools. And so maybe thinking back to the misperceptions of virtual learning not being as effective when really it can be even more effective than meeting together in person or some of the other modalities that are out there.

Tom Griffiths

Totally agree. Let's go into a little bit more detail then because you'd mentioned all those different features you can use, but also to watch out for the fact that just using them doesn't mean learning is occurring. So when it comes to how you advise people on designing their virtual sessions, using things like polls or chat or breakout rooms, how can you make that a worthwhile feature of the class?

How do those get deployed across the window that you have for learning?

Cindy Huggett

When we're thinking about any sort of learning solution, it should be tied to something that an organization needs, whether that's a business need or an opportunity; we're equipping leaders to be better communicators so that they can be more effective. We're not having to have the conversation ten times or that email chain back and forth, back and forth. We're creating, for example, a skill that leaders need or that employees need. And so we're thinking about what that is and what the outcome of the learning needs to be, either solving a problem or capitalizing on opportunity. And if we start with that in mind, we can then design a learning solution that takes us there, creating a solution that people will benefit from. 

And so we could keep going with the tools we use, the polls, the breakouts, the whiteboard, the chat, the notepads, the virtual backgrounds, the breakout rooms. All of those are simply tools to help us achieve a learning outcome and allow that new skill to be applied back on the job in the real world. So it's so much less about the tools and technology. They make it a lot easier. We can do a great virtual class with cameras only and default to using hand raising, physical hand raising, or other tools. But, you know, why do that? Technology makes it a lot easier. But let's keep in mind what the goal is. So with that said, I specifically and practically recommend to designers that most of our learners are in the middle of their workday. We're scheduling a virtual program for 10 a.m. on a Tuesday morning. So somebody has started their workday, and they're in the middle of whatever they're doing or meetings, and all of a sudden, they need to stop and then focus on learning in the virtual classroom. So how are we preparing them?

Number one, setting expectations with the learners, whether through your program descriptions, your reminders, the facilitators, personal notes to the learner, or different ways you're setting expectations. And when they log in, they are immediate reminders of those expectations. Hey, it's time to set aside whatever you're working on. It's time to take a short period of time to invest in yourself. And we're gonna help you do that, but that's what's expected. So thinking through and setting expectations. And then at the start, not 10 minutes in, not 15 minutes in, not 20 minutes in, but at the start, we are having a meaningful interaction involving every learner. 

So that could be a poll question and an interactive whiteboard. I'm not talking about an icebreaker. Because who has time for that these days? It should help with the social connection, but we're looking for some immediate interaction. One of my favorite things to do is to, for example, let the learners introduce themselves before the facilitator introduces them. It's very simple, but we're shifting the focus to the learners instead of the facilitators or, within the first five minutes, putting them into a breakout room with one other person to create a learning or accountability partner. 

So the point is right at the very beginning, we're setting the tone, we're setting the stage, not for the sake of interactivity, but for the sake of creating an environment where everyone's included and everyone is a part of the learning experience. And then we continue from there. We make use of the tools to allow for conversation, collaboration, and discussion, for facilitators who are talking too much; we tell them to share their airtime. 

Let's see what percentage of you talking or lecturing or presenting versus the learners actively involved in the experience at the end of the program. And we really want to tilt the pendulum toward the learners. And for anyone listening who's thinking, but wait a minute, I have content to teach. Well, that goes back to, is the virtual classroom the best place for that. 

A video may be part of the preparation they watch or something they read coming in prepared. And there are different ways we can encourage that to happen so that the learners show up ready to discuss, collaborate, learn, and have the conversations that then tie back to our learning outcomes.

Tom Griffiths

I know it's so powerful. And when done well, a really engaging and effective experience. I think just a few of the things that you mentioned there, you know, for the smaller group being able to introduce themselves just shows how different this can be to the more traditional webinar formats for, you know, dozens or hundreds of people. We're really talking about, you know, under 20 or so folks in the room together. That's great.

Do you have any stories or examples of exercises that have worked well for you in a recent training or for one of your clients that you've seen or any of these interactive techniques where you really saw the room change?

Cindy Huggett

You know, one of my favorites lately, and I didn't create it. It was something that I saw another presenter do, and I thought, that's brilliant, and I'm going to adapt it, modify it, and start using it. And at the start of the program, maybe not the very first thing, but pretty quick, and I'll ask my learners, everyone, you know, how engaged do you plan to be in the learning today on a scale of one to five?

where are you? And no judgment. So if they're on camera, I'll ask them to share on a scale of one to five. I've also done it by poll questions for the slightly larger groups. But I asked them the question, which usually brings a little nervous chuckle like, oh, wow, that's a direct question. But it's not the real question because the follow on question is, okay, then wherever you are, what would it take to increase that number by one?

What would it take to bump you to be a little more engaged? And we have a brief interaction around that. For some, I need just to turn my mobile device over so I can't see the screen and the notifications. For others, I need to close out of my Slack channel or just take this piece of paper on my desk to a place where I can't see it. 

Simple things like that that allow somebody to enter into the learning experience. So you might think, Cindy, that's not a deep interaction. It's not, but it profoundly differs from the learning experience. 

The other thing I do, and I'm gonna go right to it if that's okay, is I mentioned putting people into breakouts near the start of a program. One of my favorite things to do is to pair up learners, to put them into a duo and allow them to go have a quick conversation around either expectations or challenges related to the topic. Depending on the topic, I've done it in different ways, but it does two things. It, one, creates an accountability partner. People realize very quickly in the learning program that they're with other people, that this is colleagues or others in a similar learning situation who are together. So it creates that conversation and accountability.

And then number two, it gets them immediately thinking through the content, the topic, how it relates to what they are currently faced with, how it's going to benefit them, and how it's going to lead them along that learning journey. So I love to, and it's not a long breakout; it may be just three or four minutes. You know, you've got two minutes each to say hello, introduce yourself if needed, and here's your quick discussion question.

I find when I do that, again, it just changes the tone of the virtual learning program.

Tom Griffiths

The coaching question of having people reflect on where they're at engagement-wise and take ownership of how they can improve that. And then in the second one, you know, connecting with someone that perhaps, yeah, you keep revisiting that relationship throughout the training session and you know, you've broken the ice right at the beginning. So yeah, those are, those are great tactical tips. Thank you. That's all well and good in a purely virtual environment. And with the onset of COVID and remote work, we felt like we were just getting the hang of how we do this fully remotely. And then folks started to come back to the office. But of course, as we know, not everyone came back to the office, and not every day. So most of us find ourselves in these hybrid work environments where some folks are in the office together, co-located with others remotely, and that can change from day to day, week to week. And so I know a big theme of your recent work has been how we can further adapt our training techniques to hybrid environments. And so, we'd love just to hear your thoughts on how you can create a positive and powerful experience for hybrid learning.

Cindy Huggett

I'm really glad that you took a moment just to define it because I find that still, in our industry, some people, when they hear the word hybrid, they're thinking of the university model of a blended curriculum. But really we're talking about a learning program that has some people together in a conference room, training room, and then others who are joining remotely. And when we think about that, those two different audiences are having really different learning experiences. 

Some people who are together can just easily turn to the person next to them and have a side conversation where the remote audience is on their own, isolated or separated in a home office or whatever location they happen to be in. And so, bridging the gap between those very different audience experiences is the key to successful hybrid learning.

I hate to say it, but I do think it's important to acknowledge if you can avoid doing that, don't create a program that is for your in-person audience and then create a parallel program that is for your online audience and run them, not necessarily simultaneously, but in your learning catalog of

So if you have the resources to do that, I think that's a big question that learning leaders should be asking themselves right now about the right format to use for learning. Is it virtual? Is it in person? Do we have to do a hybrid? And in some cases, the answer is no. So have that intentional question. Now, if you realize because of our workforce, resources, limitations, and the way we're structured, hybrid learning makes the most sense. Well, then the second set of questions to ask are, okay, number one, do I have the technology in place, or can I get technology in place that's going to make that an easier experience for everybody involved? So that technology piece might be whatever virtual platform you're using. Do they have a kit that is a room, like a Zoom room or a Teams room?

Can I go out and get a 360-degree camera, like an owl camera, or do I have audio set up in the room? Do I have a screen that can display video, right? So you're looking at the technology. It is not required, but boy, it makes hybrid a whole lot easier and simpler to do if you've got some of the technology tools. Then the second piece, so that's question area number one, the technology.

The second piece is, am I upskilling my facilitators in how to do hybrid well? Because it is a true skill to be able to bring in and draw in and include your remote attendees so that they feel like they are part of the learning experience. Right, we wanna design it well, we wanna have activity adaptations for those who are in person versus those who are remote, but it's the facilitator who at the moment, needs to draw in the remote audience. And so the way we ask questions, the way we focus on the remote audience first, the way we invite everybody to come in, how we manage the discussion, what do we do, for example, when there's a side conversation that takes place in person and the remote audience didn't hear it. So we really want to, and a large part of my work, over the past year to year and a half, has been partnering with organizations on how to do hybrid learning well and upskilling facilitators in how to facilitate these hybrid environments classes. And I can share a couple of simple tips and examples if we want to go there, but that is just taking off because of how most organizations adapt to the hybrid workplace.

Tom Griffiths

It's such a difficult topic. Excuse me. Yeah. I mean, to your point, from the technology to the logistics to the ways that you can hopefully adapt some of the great features of virtual training to the hybrid environment, we struggle with things like, okay, you know, how do you do breakout rooms if some people are together and some people are virtual? How do you even do polls when? Maybe some people have a computer each, but others are sharing in a meeting room. What would be some of those tactical tips to overcome some of those challenges?

Cindy Huggett

Yeah, so I actually recommend that everybody have a device, even if they are in person, because it means they can connect to the virtual classroom and answer polls or use the virtual whiteboard or have access to some of the other tools, the reactions and other things. So even if you are coming together, whether it's a mobile device, or a laptop, that part doesn't matter, but I do recommend that everybody have that device that they can use the virtual classroom tools. It helps to equalize the experience. So that's number one. And then number two, we do want to make sure that everyone can be heard. And so even though you're connecting to the virtual classroom, you're not connecting to the audio. So...

A facilitator or their partner who's helping with the tech needs to know things like how you mute all upon entry; little settings like that can make or break how the audio works. We do want to see everyone on camera. So setting the expectations for both our remote and in-person audience. We're gonna have a camera in the room. We're going to ask your remote audience to have the camera on. Doesn't mean we're gonna keep it on for, you know, hours and hours and hours in a row and make you stare at the screen, but for some of these conversations, we wanna do that. 

For breakouts, it is always better, if possible, to integrate your remote audience into the in-person environment. So, for example, about three months or so ago, I was with an in-person group, and we had four remote attendees. So most of the people were together, but we had four remote attendees. 

So at the beginning of the training program, I took each of the four attendees, and I partnered them up with somebody in the classroom. Said your buddies, your partners for the day. And so each time we split into breakout groups, I ensured that each of the four was at a different table. They were assigned to a partner at a different table for the breakouts. And each of those four breakout groups that the remote attendees were in would connect that person by audio. I had one group who we were just going to FaceTime. 

We're just going to draw her in on a mobile device. And they set to like on a stand, and she was part of the conversation, and in another group, they used a different technique. Another group opened up a different team's room, right? So it was different ways, and I left it up to them how to do it. But they were folded into the breakouts that way so that they could have four different audio channels able to have the small group conversations. I think one group left; they went to a different meeting room and used that. 

But anyways, the point was we folded them in. It's a lot easier just to say, " okay, four remote participants, go have your own breakout. And there's a time and a place for that. We don't want to rule it out altogether. But if, practically, you can fold and integrate the two audiences together, again, you're creating a more equitable and inclusive learning experience, which is what we want in a hybrid classroom.

Tom Griffiths

It just speaks to your earlier points of needing to master the technology to deliver the experience you want that supports the learning group. Also clear in that is just the importance of the facilitator themselves and their skills, both in technology, but moreover on facilitation. In the book, you talk about the evolution from instructor to trainer to facilitator.

I would love it if you could just lay out that evolution and the term that you coin in the book, the facilitator of the future; it would be great to understand a bit more as well.

Cindy Huggett

So a couple of things come into play here, and one of them is in the instructional design world; over the past couple of years, the term learning experience designer has become kind of that name that instructional designers are going by. And there's a big debate in the industry. Is that the same thing as an instructional designer, just a new name? Or is it truly a new role, somebody who is designing learning experiences? And so parallel to that, you can think about the facilitator role, right? If designers are designing learning experiences, then trainers, instructors, and presenters, we're facilitating learning experiences. So I see a big parallel there. And when I think of the role in the past, we have teachers, we have instructors, we have educators, and it's not that those roles are going away. And in some, when we think about a global audience, in some countries, those terms have very specific. 

Credentialed meetings where you're credentialed to be an instructor, you're credentialed to be an educator, and so I'm not necessarily talking about that, but really looking at if our goal is to equip a workforce, to equip employees, to equip people with new skills, then it's not just about us teaching or just about somebody training or instructing. There may be an element of that. But really, we're facilitating their learning. We're enabling them to learn. And so I think the term facilitator applies best, whether that's somebody's job title or not acting like a facilitator, remembering it's not about me, the presenter, and what I'm teaching; it's about my learner. It's about my participant. It's about helping them discover, explore, practice, and ultimately be able to apply what the new topic or the new content is. 

So that's the evolution if I think of my own journey; 30 years ago, when I was in my very first corporate training job, my job title was instructor. And I'm not going to say what I was teaching, but I'll give you a hint. It's a. I'm laughing. I'm debating whether or not to share this. I'll share it anyways. I was, I was teaching DOS programming.

Wow, right? That is a blast from the past. But also Windows, when it first came out, I was teaching software programs. And who knew what DOS programming was, right? There was an instructor to it, an element to it, of course. But, the exploration of my participants who were on personal computers doing the work, like that's where the learning happened.

Where we would put together, okay, let's say you want to do this. Let's work through this scenario and how you're going to do it in today's world. It might be something like, hey, you need to fill out an expense report and submit it. So let's hop into the system and have you fill that out Versus, you know, sharing there are three different types of expense reports and five, you know, it's just getting to what do they really need to do? 

So there is a place for instructing, but then that evolved. In one of my roles that I had about ten years later, I was called a trainer. I was a trainer role, and I still had a lot of elements of teaching and presenting. A facilitation skill does include presenting. There's an element of that, of course, especially in an online environment where we're showing up on cameras. But the more we can remember, it's about the learners learning. It's about their enabling their experience, the better. So when I talk about the Learning Experience Facilitator, the Facilitator of the Future, it's all in that sentiment where we're getting to on how do we keep up with the technology and use that to help enable our learners to get a new skill, practice a new skill and apply that new skill on the job.

Tom Griffiths

It's so interesting to think about the interaction of the design with the facilitation. I used to watch a lot of live comedy when I lived in Edinburgh in Scotland, and there's a big comedy festival there. And one of the observations was, you know, an A comedian can get a laugh from a B joke just because of their delivery and how good they are, whereas a B comedian, even with an A joke, wouldn't do as well.

So I'm curious, by analogy to training and facilitation, do you think a great facilitator can carry a poorly designed class? Or does it really come down to the design and doesn't matter so much about the facilitator? Not to pit you against your colleagues in any way, of course.

Cindy Huggett

That's such a great debate, right? And they're two sides of the same coin. It's so much easier for a facilitator to carry out a well-designed program, and it does start there. I would say if a program is well-designed, then it has a learning outlet that's tied to business results, that is tied to helping an organization be more effective, whatever that organization is measuring, whatever that organization is trying to do. So the well-designed program, especially in the virtual or hybrid world, yes, it's engaging, yes, it's interesting, yes, it's making use of the tools, but ultimately, it's helping the learners have an impact. So, you need a great facilitator, especially in an online environment. I think a poor facilitator would have a hard time carrying a design, even if it's a well-designed program. Um, but that might be my bias in working with facilitators. They're both important. Uh, I'm going to mull that over a little bit.

Let's zoom out a little bit because we talked a lot in detail about the act and all the art of facilitation. But of course, any learning sessions are set in the broader context of a bigger learning program, and you've got a ton of experience designing, managing, and delivering those as well.

Tom Griffiths

We're certainly living through a time when budgets are getting scrutinized and potentially reduced in this space. And to do this stuff well, as we've talked about so far, it needs investment. It needs investment in great facilitation, great content development, and technology. And so we'd be curious what approaches you might recommend to folks out there in the learning space to help them justify that investment in this level of learning design and delivery.

Cindy Huggett

Investment is really the key word because if we think of it as a cost, if we think of it as a sunk cost, then we're not seeing it from the right lens. We're not looking at it from the right perspective. And when we look at these investments, it's an investment in technology, but more importantly, it's an investment in your people. We want to take a program that is well-designed. As we talked to just a few moments ago, a well-designed program is one that is linked to that application and impact. It's linked to the impact that this learning program is going to have on the organization. So perhaps a flip.

Sideway of thinking of that is what would happen if the learning doesn't take place. What are the challenges and problems? rework Costs of not providing this type of learning and if that is going to affect the organization Organization's bottom line if it's going to affect customer service. It's going to affect turnover right all those things that have hard measures in place; then it's something that we want to be investing in. We invest in our leaders in leader development, for example, not just because we want to check a box and say we provide leadership development but because we want those leaders to have effective conversations with their employees so that they can achieve business results or they can sell more product, or they can meet customer service or whatever the business goals happen to be. And so, truly looking at it as an investment, I mentioned the most current book that we just came out with, Designing Virtual Learning for Application and Impact. That is the core of this new book. And it is, How Do You Design a Virtual Learning Curriculum?

To make sure that you're not just stopping at did they learn something, but looking at how we design it to ensure there's business impact. And so there are actually 50 techniques in the book that we put on how do you do that? 

And so we drew upon the wisdom of ROI experts, Jack and Patty Phillips, and then Emma Webber, who's a learning transfer expert, and then my contribution from the virtual classroom. And really brought those three things together to look at what does it take? And so as a learning leader, who's looking at investing in technology, investing in virtual learning programs, investing in our people, want to think about, okay, what would happen if I don't do this? Do I want to go down that path? And the answer is probably not. So how is this going to help our organization? What can we do? 

And one other thing I'll say about it is, yes, there is an investment in technology. There's an investment in upskilling. There's an investment in having the right equipment. But often, those investments are ones that your organization is already making. You're already, for example, equipping people with webcams for video meetings, and we're now going to use those for virtual learning. Or you're using a platform perhaps that you're using for online collaboration that we can then use for learning. And we can reuse components in the design. Really good designers that they use, and they repeat that. And so there may be some more initial investments than ongoing, but it's an investment that's going to help you be more efficient in creating the learning, designing the learning, implementing the learning.

Tom Griffiths

Thinking about those outcomes and how we can evidence that, and how training can improve our progress towards those outcomes is so important. If you can articulate that, you can go do it. If you don't make the investment, you don't get the return. One of the saddest things we've seen in the industry recently is people saying, you know, my budget's been cut. I've still got to do something. I know it's not really going to work, but we need to check the box. Um, and so it's like the worst of both worlds. You're spending the money, but you're not getting the outcome. So yeah, you've really got to, um, ensure that those investments are paying off. And, um, there's plenty of techniques out there and case studies and statistics on the internet to show people how to do that. And, uh, really looking forward to the book to go in deeper on it.

Cindy Huggett

Yeah. Tom, I'm reminded you and I both, and I'm sure our listeners have had experiences. Think of a customer service person you have dealt with in your recent life who wasn't up-skilled, who couldn't help you with whatever problem you were having or whatever situation you were asking about. That's the result often, not always, but often of an organization that did not invest in its people, right? That didn't equip them with what they needed or the skill they needed. And about the frustration, which is just one small example, but we know what good customer service looks like; we appreciate it when we get it, and we think about what would happen if the organization invested in their people. What a different experience that might have been?

Tom Griffiths

What would you say to folks that the most important things learning leaders should be measuring to get results? You mentioned the customer service example, but interested in that function and others as well to see how we can actually measure this outcome.

Cindy Huggett

You know, I would point to whatever the organizational measures are. I don't know that we have different measures as learning leaders. If the organization has a goal, for example, to roll out a new product next year, well, then that's where our learning efforts should be. Or, if we're struggling with employee engagement and employee turnover, we should be looking at how we can help with learning opportunities that will have an impact.

We might look at sales, and we might look at marketing, we might look at internal efficiencies, and product or program management, right? So I don't necessarily think it's different. Some of the traditional training measures that we look at how many people went through our classes and what are hours of learning we had, and those might be fine statistics and numbers to look at. Maybe you're looking at evaluation scores on a trainer's evaluation. It's not that those numbers are bad, but that's not what an organization is looking at in terms of success. So I think the most successful learning leaders measure what's important to the organization. And if you don't know what that is, let's have those conversations, find out, and then funneling the learning opportunities there, funneling the resources around designing and facilitating, producing, and supporting into areas that are going to equip your team to have impact, application, and impact on the organization. So somebody who works for a nonprofit or manufacturing or aerospace or pharmaceutical right there are all going to have their different measures. But my guess is it falls back on one of the traditional key performance indicators around time, quality, money, sales, and those things. So as learning leaders, let's keep our eye and ear on those as well.

Tom Griffiths

How do you scale effective learning experiences across big populations at big multinational corporations or even folks that have got more than 20 people in their company, which is almost every company? So it's a big topic that we could go deep on in another conversation, but I would love to kind of get your high-level thoughts on how you then go beyond just the singular small classroom experience and then scale that to large populations and what some challenges that can arise there are and how to overcome those.

Cindy Huggett

Yeah, that's such a great question, especially when we think about the large multinational organizations or those with a large population that need the learning. And some of it goes back to design. If you need to scale a program, we know the value of small groups and small cohorts going through a learning journey together. But we can look back to, back in 2012, right? I think it was 2012 when it was declared the year of the MOOC, the M-O-O-C. Remember that? The massive open online courses. Let's get hundreds of people into these live online courses. And that didn't last very long. They're still around. But what happened was they shifted to have a lot of the content in self-directed asynchronous learning and then coming together, bringing together the smaller cohorts for discussion, collaboration, and conversation. And I think we can take a lesson from that. When we need to scale a learning program, the ability to determine what can be done synchronously, asynchronously, and what's the right mix, the right component mix. So, for example, if I'm going to learn a new skill, I'm gonna just take a generic one. I need to learn how to do a performance review with an employee. And...

There are a lot of very practical tactical things that I may not need a facilitator for. So where can I get that information? Where can I get that content? But then let's come together in smaller groups. So having the ability to come together with a peer group, a smaller group for discussion.

Okay, I know how to fill out the form, but what about actually having the conversation? And what do I do when an employee says, well, I don't agree with that or whatever that challenge may be? And so coming together in smaller groups. So we have this umbrella, if you will, different parts of the learning experience or the journey, different components. 

Some I do on my own, and some I do together. You can scale that in organizations. When you have a facilitator who might meet, and let's take one facilitator who's in a geographic location, they might meet with a group from 8 to 9 a.m., have a quick break, meet with another group from 10 to 11 a.m., and then meet with another group, right? 

So they're cycling through different groups at different parts of the learning journey, but they're touching a facilitator. They're touching an up-skilled, experienced expert in that content, a learning leader, or a group where the learning experience can still take place. So we could keep going with some more specifics, but how do you scale with really well-designed programs and break people into those small cohorts at times when it makes sense? I may bring people together for 300 people together in one webinar for something, but then I'm breaking them into their smaller groups for the discussion dialogue practice and all of that. 

I don't want a manager who has just watched a series of videos on how to have a difficult conversation than having that difficult conversation. It's like, and I don't want a surgeon who just watched videos on how to do the surgery. It's there's certain things that getting together with colleagues and discussion and dialogue you're going to help with.

Tom Griffiths

We can do some parts asynchronously at scale and then bring the right groups of people together at the right times to go deeper on that cohort learning experience that they're going through together. That's great.

What would you recommend is one thing that learning leaders stop doing that you see a lot of people doing right now?

Cindy Huggett

I think learning leaders need to stop assuming that just because most people have been online for the last three years, that they're equipped to be online well. I think we make the assumption that somebody can show up on camera and deliver or get their point across when really that is a skill that not everybody has, or they've been doing it poorly for a while, and no one's pointed it out to them. You know, if you did these three quick things.

your message would be heard in a much more intentional way. And so, I think we need to stop assuming that everyone has the skill of online presence, online communication skills, and digital presentation skills. I think that's a missed opportunity in many organizations.

Tom Griffiths

What's one thing that you think learning leaders should start doing, just given everything that's going on?

Cindy Huggett

We should start equipping our learners, and participants, with what they need to attend virtual learning well. I think sometimes we forget that if you're going to put an hour or 90-minute learning event in the middle of a work week, that means that it's not the time to be pinging them with Slack or Teams messages because they're learning right now. I think we need to start recognizing virtual learning as a viable way to learn and honor that some leaders do well, but I think far too many of us need to start remembering that.

Tom Griffiths

One thing to give credit to folks out there that they're doing that they should continue to do?

Cindy Huggett

We've gotten really good at using virtual classroom tools like polling and like chatting. I think we should continue using those with a caveat. We're not using them just to use them, but we're using them to further the conversation. So we're getting good at breakouts. We're getting good at collaborative whiteboards and polling, but let's use them with intentionality and so not fall into a rut, but use them and continue to use them to further conversations.

Tom Griffiths

Absolutely agreed. Thank you. Last question. We've got a lot of aspiring and growing learning leaders who love to learn how to be more effective in their roles. So I would love to get from your experience one tip or takeaway for them to stand out in their role to their team or the leadership team.

Cindy Huggett

Wow, are you sure that's just our last question, Tom, because we could spend another hour talking about that, I think. I, if I could boil it down to one thing, I would say continually invest in yourself, in your own learning. The more you're willing to try out a new technology or try out a new technique or be open to incorporating something in. And it takes investment to do that in this fast-paced world. It's really hard to pause, go through your 90-minute personal development program, and invest in yourself. But that rest or that investment or that just let me read a new journal article or try out this new technology or attend this segment is going to pay off in dividends. And so I think that's an important reminder, not only to new learning leaders but to myself as well. Perhaps I'm speaking to myself more than anyone, but that's the number one piece of advice I would share.

Tom Griffiths

Fantastic, yeah, so make the time to invest in yourself. I love it. Thank you so much, Cindy. That was a fantastic wide-ranging conversation with so much wisdom there for our listeners. Really appreciate the time. I mean, I've been in this industry for over half a decade now, and I've never met anyone that knows as much about the virtual training space, both at the high level and down at the detailed tactical level of how to do this well. So thank you for sharing so much of that today.

Cindy Huggett

Thanks, Tom. It's been an honor to be here, and I've loved our conversation.

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